AlbertaChickensEtc

Chicknlady · 2009-10-24 01:41:23

hi all, ill start at the beggining.... i bought a bunch of bantams locally this year from march-june, most from a reputable breeder with loooots of birds (picked up at local swap n shop), and i incubated eggs from these birds and have raised a bunch of the young (these are now 4-6 months old and are the ones im having trouble with). they are kept in good living conditions (not overcrowded, clean coops with attatched large enclosed runs) provided fresh water daily, and food (layer pellets for the older birds and grower crumbles for the youngins) also fresh compost a few days a week. no lice/mites, i check weekly and have powder on hand in case (some of the birds i purchased from a local breeder had mites when i got them).

i lost 2 japanese bantams (purchased at 8 weeks old from breeder) in sept at 5 months old, they had distended crops (seemed air filled, birds were lethargic and super skinny, died after a few weeks).

i lost another japanese early oct (one i hatched from a trio i bought from a breeder), had not noticed her as being sickly prior to death (though a bunch of my 4-6 month old birds are thin).

i noticed (when i lost the 3rd japanese) a few of my others 4-6 month olds (japanese and one d'uccle) had some weezing/gargling noises, were quite thin, but other than that perky, no discharge from eyes/nose etc, seemed otherwise fine. I made a vet appt (1 week wait) and took a sick japanese to be examined today, one who had gotten progressivly worse with weezing over the last 2 weeks, vet suspected mereks due to large hard growth in abdomen ("normal" other than growth, weezing and skinny), i had the bird euthanised and it is being sent off for necrospy monday (earliest it could be due to weekend) i should have results (also having everything else tested/examined, levels of minerals etc etc, the whole works) in about a week for the necropsy (and 2-3 weeks for other tests).

does this sound typical for mereks? they had NO paralysis of any sort which seems to be one of the main merkes symptoms. is there other diseases that present with weight loss, weezing/gargling and possible tumor? i did not open up the other dead birds and they are not burried so ill never know if they were also tumor riddled.

the vet did say that since it was (so far) the japanese who have died, and been most affected, the bloodline is possibly more suseptile to it/weaker immune systems and not to breed that group anymore? this was a breeding trio i bought from a larger scale 'reputable' breeder, i wouldnt be surprised though if they were inbred (but properly inbred/linebred, as from what i understand she has lots of pens of each type she has)

ETA: Avian Lymphoid Leukosis sounds more probable due to longer incubation period as well as absence of paralysis (vet said mereks or this one)

Last edited by Chicknlady (2009-10-24 02:02:53)

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mellomeadow · 2009-10-24 02:20:27

are you practising "deep litter management"?

Chicknlady · 2009-10-24 03:14:56

no, i do thinner bedding and clean it often- shavings.

Chickie Vickie · 2009-10-24 15:35:35

Not sure what to think either.. I would just be bio secure until you get your necrospy results back.. Can you tell me what they charge you per chick to do this? There are so many chicken diseases it could be.. I was thinking cocciodiosis at first but doesnt explain the weasyness., probably somekind of upper respiratory disease?? .doesnt sound good whatever it is.. let us know when you find out.. wishing you something that is easy to fix..I wouldnt go spending too much money on vets, as birds are pretty inexpensive to replace..good luck.. try not to stress too much.I know its hard when your waiting for results.

mellomeadow · 2009-10-24 16:31:09

from back in the '50's or earlier, the poultry industry has recommended "deep litter management". Composting manure and litter material develops natural antibiotics that keep the flock healty. People who insist keeping their poultry houses cleaner than their own houses usually experience a higher than normal mortality rate in their flock.

"Google" "deep litter management" and you'll find lots of material on the subject.

Chicknlady · 2009-10-24 23:25:56

chickie- i was thinking upper respiratory as well, i had a few diseases in mind when i went to the vet, but due to the large growth in the abdomen he said mareks. i am of course sitting tight until the results of the necropsy and other tests, no chickens going anywhere until this is figured out. birds are not so inexpensive to replace when you lose a lot, i just lost another today (it was acting normal yesterday, but today was flopped over dying) so that makes my death toll up to 6 (over 2 months, but the last 3 are very recent), and at ~$15/bird thats $75 in birds i have lost (mostly pullets to).

the vet visiti cost $67 and the necrospy and other tests was only $75 (including euthinizing and shipping to the lab), so i was more than willing to pay that if they can figure it out. i need to know what it is, i have more sick birds and im sure at least some of them will die.

i do not keep my chicken coops as clean as my house, but i keep them nice enough, a poo filled coop is no good. i do thinner bedding and that is what works for my set-up.

Last edited by Chicknlady (2009-10-24 23:27:34)

Chicknlady · 2009-10-25 03:44:10

so i did a "autopsy" on the most recent dead chicken, didnt find anything i thought to be unusual, though i dont know the anatomy of the chicken overly well (and had never opened one up) organs looked normal (to me), didnt see any visible tumors. i suppose i can only wait until the professional necropsy to come back (so impatient, dont want to wait 7+ days), and dissect any more chickens that die in the meantime (hopefully none, but they have all looked/acted fine until i found them dead)

Labman · 2009-10-25 04:08:20

mellomeadow wrote:
from back in the '50's or earlier, the poultry industry has recommended "deep litter management". Composting manure and litter material develops natural antibiotics that keep the flock healty. People who insist keeping their poultry houses cleaner than their own houses usually experience a higher than normal mortality rate in their flock.

"Google" "deep litter management" and you'll find lots of material on the subject.

Which, may well be very true, but, it is irelevant to the question that was asked!
We all appreciate the fact that you like to share your informaton, as do we all, when it addresses the issue pertaining to the original post.
NO where does "Google" "deep litter management" help with the O.P. concerns as to what may be affecting the Flock.
Better advise would be:
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index … m_list.htm

mellomeadow · 2009-10-25 17:11:42

Which, may well be very true, but, it is irelevant to the question that was asked!
We all appreciate the fact that you like to share your informaton, as do we all, when it addresses the issue pertaining to the original post.
NO where does "Google" "deep litter management" help with the O.P. concerns as to what may be affecting the Flock.

The spread of the disease could be directly related to keeping the coop too clean. Deep litter management has been proven to control and prevent the outbreak of diseases in chickens. Persons who sanitize their chickens' housing usually end up with a higher than average mortality rate.

A person with chickens really has two choices - (1) keep the antibiotics handy or (2) introduce practices that prevent disease outbreaks. If the person in question gets the current disease under control and continues with the present procedures they are likely to have a re-occurance in future. Remember "prevention is better than cure".

Last edited by mellomeadow (2009-10-25 17:12:39)

Chicknlady · 2009-10-25 18:33:42

i live in BC in canada, i can not get antibioducts to keep on hand, i would have to see a vet for whatever ailment they had (which i have, but since there is NO medication for mareks this is not an option). the only thing i can buy to keep on hand here i already have, from the local feed store (lice/mite powder and cocci meds).

I do not keep the coop "to clean" i have yet to sanatize it (only had the chickens for max 6 months), i remove poo from under perches semi-regularly (for hygene reasons, they dont need to be running around in inches of poop) and replace the bedding when neccessary. I have had chickens before, and housed them similarly to this with NO problems whatsoever (and my grandparents all keep chickens under similar conditions, for YEARS, with no crazy disease outbreaks)

ETA: i also have wood flooring all all my coops, deep litter is best done on EARTH flooring.

Last edited by Chicknlady (2009-10-25 18:43:14)

mellomeadow · 2009-10-25 20:51:18

(mellomeadow is actually "he")

My final reply to chicknlady was going to be "do whatever you find works for you". The Poultry Keeping Course I took in high school for extra credits taught all about deep litter management. Usually when somebody switches to a system of adding material to litter rather than removing completely, their disease problems disappear.

I have countless numbers of poultry housed in several coops. Most are free ranging. Occasionally one will die of unknown causes and the first one gave me quite a bit of concern. The experts will tell you to expect about a 5% mortality rate per year - that is in a flock of 100, 5 will die, but be concerned if the percentage is much higher.

As I sell chicks and adult chickens, I have a rule that I've only broken a couple of times in the last 5 years: No birds come onto the farm except as day-old chicks from a reputable hatchery (vaccinated if possible) or as eggs for hatching. The incubator and housing for the chicks is not located near to the mature flock. Integration only happens when chicks are about 3 weeks or older. I try to do everything possible to prevent passing on some disease or condition to my customers.

If a person needs to buy stock then I recommend they "know their source" and quarantine for at least a couple of weeks. People who collect birds at swap meets and drop the new birds into their present flock are playing with the inevitable. The very least that could happen is to introduce lice or mites. Diseases and vermin can also come home with birds taken to shows.

Many people value their poultry as highly as they would a cat or dog. I'm sure it is quite traumatic when one gets sick and/or dies. Unfortunately the veterinarian system is not set-up to deal with, or really all that experienced in, avian matters. Commercial operations simply deal with a problem by culling the works. Really hard to do when the flock is of family pets.

Chicknlady · 2009-10-31 00:24:51

autopsy results are in and there were no findings of mareks, or any other infectiouse disease :thumbsup: no salmonella or anything weird either!! still waiting on the parasitology and i think toxicology reports, but not likely to turn up anything that was pertinant to cod.

turns out the cockeral that was autopsy'd had an impaction/foreign body of some sort in his abdomen that his body was trying to fight by building up stuff around it to "get rid of it" (waiting to find out exactly what the impaction was) but i would think it must be bedding (which was sawdust/shaving mix, i have since moved to just shavings) or something, find out next week.

the other few birds that were a bit weezy seem totally fine now, i added a higher wattage heat bulb and filled in some drafty crevases in the coop. i guess the other 2 i lost with crop problems was just that- crop problems, for which i tried every suggestion i got short of cutting them open (which if crop problems occured again i probably would do minor surgery, since i have now autopsied a chicken, so it cant be any grosser)

Last edited by Chicknlady (2009-10-31 00:27:13)

BuffOrpsgirl · 2009-10-31 01:47:25

it's always so hard to lose birds. I am so glad for you that this wasn't infectious.

Chickens=Love · 2009-11-15 07:15:26

Not to get invovled, but I read that Mareks disease is spread from dander and other birds need to inhale this dander to receive the disease. So regardless of you litter situation, Mareks disease is an airborne pathogen.

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#1 2009-10-24 01:41:23

sick- possible mereks? other ideas?

2009-10-24 01:41:23

#2 2009-10-24 02:20:27

Re: sick- possible mereks? other ideas?

#3 2009-10-24 03:14:56

Re: sick- possible mereks? other ideas?

#4 2009-10-24 15:35:35

Re: sick- possible mereks? other ideas?

#5 2009-10-24 16:31:09

Re: sick- possible mereks? other ideas?

#6 2009-10-24 23:25:56

Re: sick- possible mereks? other ideas?

#7 2009-10-25 03:44:10

Re: sick- possible mereks? other ideas?

#8 2009-10-25 04:08:20

Re: sick- possible mereks? other ideas?

mellomeadow wrote:

#9 2009-10-25 17:11:42

Re: sick- possible mereks? other ideas?

#10 2009-10-25 18:33:42

Re: sick- possible mereks? other ideas?

#11 2009-10-25 20:51:18

Re: sick- possible mereks? other ideas?

#12 2009-10-31 00:24:51

Re: sick- possible mereks? other ideas?

#13 2009-10-31 01:47:25

Re: sick- possible mereks? other ideas?

#14 2009-11-15 07:15:26

Re: sick- possible mereks? other ideas?

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